liz- maybe you and rob could co-coordinate a trip and demonstrate survival spooning techniques in order to bury the hatchet (and that's not a euphemism for staking the tent).

and, geez, lois, i would never have guessed that you're the type that leaves another rider to die- unless it's almost closing time at the food court...(riding from el moro to irvine is about as tricky as a whale finding its way to london).

thanks, john, for your training info. most of us need to hear it from 3 or 4 different sources before we start to consider how we'd save ourselves from a bad situation.

Doug, it was worse than that. After we left the parking lot we gunned it to Z-Pizza only to arrive as they were locking the front door! 2.5 hour mtb ride, inordinate time waiting in parking lot, no food.  You tell me who was really suffering that night.

hi everyone im Rigo i just became a member and looking forward to some outdoor sports hope to get to know  a lot of you and see ya in the woods ok have a good one ...

Well, I found out that Boomer Or Bomber Ridge road is not in the Park.  It leads to Laugna Canyon.  I went up to the end of the canyon expecting to meet someone.  Geez, you guys are bad asses on bikes ( that is written as a compliment).  I missed the group by going up the hard way (I walked, I need to get in shape) when there was the fork.  I figured that at least a couple would go down that way, becuase it was the bad ass way.  When I got to the top, I figured I had missed the bf, and decided to go down the way you guys came up.  There was more light and less bugs.

Well obviously, I took a wrong turn, I though Bomber Rigde road was the trail back to the cars.  By the time I figured that it wasn't I was too tired to go up.  Since the trail had lots of tracks, had to lead to somewhere.  Ended up at another Park on Laguana Canyon Drive, not on the door of the trailer but no one answered.  Started biking down Laugna Canyon Road in the direction that I thought the beach was then I eaw the lights of the Spectrum.  I knew where the Spectrum was so that was my goal.

The first call phone I came to, I made a call because I was worried about People looking for me.  They tried to call my dad, but he wasn't home.  The only number that I remeber from my bf, was three and that wasn't going to help ( speed dial, I don't memorize phone #s anymore).  The Irvine police contacted the people of El Morro that I was found.  I still had a good five mile ride to the Grocery store where the police had given me directions.  That was five miles on a dark canyon road.  Thank God for wide sholders.

At that point I believe that the bf only knew I had been found, and he expected me to be at the park when he and the ranger came down.  Only one other persom was there that I understand he had to beg to stay, and he told him what he knew at the time.  A helicopter had been requested, but since the overcast had been so low, they couldn't fly.  I wish I had brought my cell phone.  The why I made the comment.  It was the biggest lesson I learned.  I could have called once I knew I was lost, and told him where I was at.  Everybody would be happy.  I know it won't be good everywhere, but in southern california it is surprising where you get reception.

By the way, I am sorry for interrupting your ride.  I didn't sign up because it was last minute and I knew I would'nt keep up with the group.  It was by no means the BF's fault.  I go hiking and snowboarding by myself all the time.  I just did everything wrong this time.  I also learned that I have a terrible since of direction.

Did I also mention that while riding on the dark canyon road that George Clooney pulled over to see if I was alright, and we had incredible sex.(embellishment)

Also, when people ask me for directions, I always say something like "YOur asking the chick that got lost in El Morro Canyon?"  I realize that was a stupid thing to do.

Patti,

Great route girl. We only just started riding those trails recently.  You must have gone all the way to the end of El Moro and then took Bommer Ridge over to Laguna Wilderness Park where you descended down Willow Canyon to their parking lot in Laguna Canyon.  Then, all the way to the Spectrum and back and around to El Moro?  That is one epic ride!

You know...you could've taken the Irvine bike path from the Spectrum all the way to the Back Bay in Newport and then returned to El Moro via the Coast Hwy.  That would be a really nice, all purpose bike ride.  Care to lead it?

BTW, the helicopter was there. We saw it flying with its searchlight going up El Moro Canyon.  Little did they know that you were long gone.  They don't charge for those searches either.  Those guys live to fly that contraption.

Funny, I had the exact same experience with that Clooney guy.  He's so considerate, doncha think?

Ummm...tell me again, where EXACTLY did you both have this "experience"?

GPS coordinates would be helpful. After all, I do need the practice...;o)

You don't need a GPS to find Clooney. His "arrow" always points true North.

nyuck nyuck nyuck

OK, that joke didn't really work, but I'm gunning for 3000 views on this thread.

Wait a bloody second.. do you mean to tell me there was ANOTHER helicopter near rescue of the ODC and Verdi wasnt involved? Isnt that a violation of the club charter or something? Patti, trying to get ODC members to wait for slower hikers/riders or adventurers again is a tough ordeal. I have had people flat out refuse to wait at intersections when the didnt know the way, because they wanted to run part of the hike.

Patti, no wonder you got lost, you were in Irvine where all the houses have to look the same, each family has 2.3 children and all driveways have portable basketball hoops in front. Glad to see you were still around, safe and sound, representing the 909.

Lastly, why would I want to stop fighting with Liz. Angry sex is soo much better, at least until our hands get tired.

O.K...looks like I initiated some usefull discussion regarding GPS.  Let me make a couple of more points and then I will leave it alone.  Just as a GPS is not a substitute for a map and compass, a map and compass are not a substitute for a GPS unit.  It's not a zero sum game.  Ken, your assertion that recreationists should somehow view themselves as different from SAR is probably a contributing factor in the problems the hikers experienced.  I live in Tucson, AZ and spend copious amounts of time in very remote desert areas, alone.  One of the most remote places I go is  the Sand Tank Mountains in the Sonoran Desert National Monument. The following is a site provided by an off road club I am not familiar with but it does give a good overview of the remoteness of the area.  Maybe a nice area for a future outing by your club.  http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/sand_tank_2003/index.htm I may not be SAR but I do prepare in a fashion so as to only need them for legitimate reasons, situations that could not be prepared for.  Situations like injury, vehicle failure, etc.  I don't use a GPS for navigation, only to straight line back to my truck or quad or to report my position should I ever need to be rescued.  You can't ignore the fact that if just one of those two lost hikers had a GPS and knew how to use it, SAR would not have been called.  I would much rather be rescued because my GPS, with new batteries in it, failed, as opposed to being rescued because I got lost and didn't have one.  Incidently, with all of this talk of maps and compasses and navigation skills, how did this group end up getting lost and arguing about which was the correct way back to the jump off point?  Didn't anyone whip out the compass and map and plot the best way back?  When I go into the wilderness here's how it works.  I take lots of water, a little food, cell phone, GPS, necessities to stay at least marginally warm overnight.  Most importantly, I don't tell, I write down for my wife the general area (8-10 mile radius) where I am going to be and I give her a time that if she hasn't heard from me to call the authorities.  I understand that what I do and what the hikers were doing is comparing apples and oranges, however, the bottom line is the same.  Whether you are 6 miles from your car on foot, or 25 miles away on a 4x4 quad, things can happen that will impede your ability to get back to where you started.  Prepare to overcome the obstacles, and should that become impossible, prepare so that the rescue will come as quickly as possible. 

Just one more.  Regarding formal GPS training....no need.  Buy a small hand held Garmin unit for $150-$200 and simply play with it.  Navigate to work and back.  Load some waypoints (store, work, etc) and practice using the GOTO feature.  Learn the difference between FILL and WRAP of the breadcrumb feature.  Use it on "real world" hikes where you know all of the trails for practice when you go on hikes in unfamiliar territory.  Real easy to learn through practice, let's face it, it's not BRAIN SURGERY!

True enough, Curtis.

However, your logic confuses me.  If we are going to follow your suggestion, and use our SAR friends' approach as the standard.......do you seriously think that they just "simply play with it", as you suggest??   No.  They spend  significant time becoming *proficient*.  But you seem to think that their approach is NOT appropriate, although you cite their use of the technology as what everyone should emulate.  I would suggest that any prospective SAR candidate that considered that sufficient, would be washed out.

You were the one who held them up as an example to be followed.....I think you either follow their approach, which is the skilled use of GPS built on a foundation of proficient navigation skill, or retract your assertion.  

After all, as you said: "assertion that recreationists should somehow view themselves as different from SAR is probably a contributing factor in the problems the hikers experienced. "  Yet that is EXACTLY what you have asserted in your last approach, above.

I have a friend who is an E rated leader with the sierra club who has lead a number of trips to Laguna Peak without issue. The sierra club requires a co-leader on all of their trips who know the trail as well as the leader and acts as a sweeper.
I lead a hike in November and tried to be leader and sweeper but when I fell back with a slower hiker the group went on and did not follow my request to stop at the next intersection, so they all hiked out at the wrong point. Luckily the hike was in the Santa Monica Mtns and they ended up on Sunset Blvd in the Pacific Palisades.
My previous stint as a leader, I would screen the people who signed up by their profile for my more challenging trips, and I would not give directions to the trailhead in the trip posting either.
I started to lead trips for the ODC after taking the Leadership Training Course and being in the middle of my O rating trips since I did not have to deal with some of the politics and the time it takes to become a O rated leader.

The Deputy and SAR volunteer's postings are invaluable and need to be posted somewhere permanently on this site.

Hey Ken....you obviously have a need to be right about everything and generally have a confrontational personality.  I don't believe I suggested that SAR overall abilities should be the standard for recreational hikers.  My point was that their ability to return from a hike without having to be rescued should be at the same level as SAR.  Recreationalists should hike as if there is no such thing as SAR.  As far a "playing" with the GPS to become proficient with it, that's exactly what I'm saying.  I suggested a Garmin model as they, at least in the past, have been more user friendly than the Magellans.  Frankly Ken, in regards to using the unit to return to a point or go back the way you came does not require much "proficiency"  Doing what I suggested will be way more than sufficient.  Now, please explain some more how those are all bad suggestions, but this time please cite your experiences that have caused you to reach your opinions.  You have to understand Ken, I speak from years of experience solo, and with others, in the back country.  I don't get lost.  I'm simply trying to give the folks on this forum some suggestions of things they might do in the future to make their experiences as positive as possible.  I'm sure many of them don't need my input, however, if something I suggest is useful to just one member, than my time was well spent.

Some kind of leadership education might be in order. I used to be a member of the Sierra Club but I left because the hikes were too structured and the leaders acted like army sargeants and corporals. They do however have a good record of keeping the group together with an experienced assistant leader or sweep. http://motherlode.sierraclub.org/outings.html

 

Ken and Curtis,  you are both right and if I ever did a complicated hike I would feel safer if either of you were on the hike.  However, you are not considering your audience.  People who get hiking advice from the ODC message boards do not have your training or experience.  Of course it would be great if we all took extensive training courses, but that ain't going to happen.  For the casual hiker like myself, it is better to have a basic GPS with minimal training and a map then to have nothing because you (incorrectly) believed it required months of training before you could use a GPS.

Also, it is silly to say that you shouldn't use GPS because it might fail.  That is like saying you should do night hikes with a fire torch because flashlights could break.

Thanks Jeff, it looks like he has redirected his diatribe from me to explaining how you don't know sh*t either.  I will be signing off of the ODC board now and again, I hope everybody continues to be safe in the future. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

it looks like he has decided to point out how stupid you are 

score:

   ken- 27
curtis- 24 (3-point deduction for ad hominem attacks)

both of you have given us lots to chew on for backcountry safety and, with a little more nastiness, we might just break the 4000-hit barrier on this topic...

Curtis, I welcome your comments and input on any assertion that I make.  However, when you start to psychoanalyse me, I know that you have run out of facts, and just want to attack me, personally.  You appear to want to get into a "credentials war", which I always find amusing, from an unknown poster from the internet.   No one here knows you.  You can say that you are a retired general, in Iraq.  You might be a 14 y/o boy in SoHo.  You might be a 14y/o girl.  Point is, you have no credibility just because you say you have.   You have a profile that has nothing in it.  Feel free to look at mine.

Jeff, I don't say that one shouldn't use GPS because it might fail.  I say that because GPS OFTEN fails, one should not venture into a situation where one is totally dependent upon GPS, without backup navigational alternatives, and a good understanding of what to do when it does.  In that case, one is helpless.  

I guess I've not stated my case well.  In the case of your excellent flashlight analogy, I would change it to:  Don't go caving and depend upon one flashlight, whose operation you've not checked, for which you carry no extra batteries.  If it fails, in that situation, you're screwed.  If you are in a serious off-trail situation, in which you are also depending upon a GPS with which you are only marginally familiar, and it fails, you are also screwed. 

For the casual hiker, you should not be in such a position, which generally to me, would be in an off-trail situation.

All the time, I see people acquire "toys" for use in the backcountry, and their first experience is with it out of the box.  And this extends to hugely technical situations:  A friend of mine wrote a book a few years ago about his climb of Everest, in which there were people arriving on the mountain who had never tried on their boots, nor checked to see if their crampons fitted properly.  Astonishing.  However, common.   I've seen people flummoxed because their new GPS did not function, only to find that they didn't know that it took batteries to run.    So, I am not of the school "pick up a GPS, and you can wander wherever your heart desires".  It disrespects the wilderness, which has a low margin for error.

I have to admit I bought a cheapo compass and threw it in my napsack just in case I ever needed it.  Since I only do easy day hikes I don't worry too much about this stuff.  The first time I needed it I opened it up and looked at the rotating arrow.  One half was black, the other half was red. Both ends were pointy.  There was nothing saying which half was the north half.  We figured it out at the time, but I don't remember which half is which.  I should probably figure it out and write it down. 

Curtis, your post is garbled so I don't know what you are referring to.  Comparred to Ken I don't know sh*t.  I doubt he really said this but he would be correct if he did.

On navigating with a GPS - one thing the manual doesn't sufficiently warn you about, and that you find out by "playing" with it in the wilderness, is that it is rare that you can beeline it to your destination.  The distance and ETE (estimated time left until you reach your destination) won't correspond to reality if you have to switchback the trail, walk around obstacles, or even walk away from the destination because that's the way the trail goes.  The unit only knows straight-line navigation.  With a map and experience, you can figure out the best way to get from here to there, with your little GPS partner nudging you this way or that to properly line you up.

Also, you find you actually use the GPS as you would a compass to navigate.  You aim the arrow at a landmark you can see that is far enough away to walk there without trouble, put away your unit, then look at it again when you reach the landmark.  Holding it in your hand and constantly looking at it means you're still an amateur, it's pitch dark or you are caught in a whiteout.

All this comes with practise.

John Wehbring