Everything that could/should be said has been said by Frank, Valerie & Jason.

Everyone is safe. There are risks involved in outdoor activities. Accept the risks once you step outside.  The SAR is there for... Search and Rescue. I'm not suggesting that people should get lost/hurt so that the SAR can have something to do but that's what they are there for.  The ODC is not a club, more like an online forum for ANYBODY to coordinate outdoor events. Think Craiglist.

David Urban - I understand that you are angry, frustrated and need a place to vent but there are better ways to do it.  I'm going to put this in the nicest way possible, stop trolling. I'm not being rude, just trying to keep it short.

I really hope that this thread does not continue.  Lets move on.

David yah know..... when I go out I try to go as well prepared as I can. I expect the same from the people that are coming with me..... cause I know it might just be me needing the help.... hope it never comes to that tho.

My comments above are to make any participant aware that I expect everyone to know what they are doing and getting into.
If that offends them, then they can CHOOSE to go somewhere else or stay and home, hell even go to their local park for a social gathering.

As for the last comments..... Lisa is that you ????????

Ok, moving on............................................
how'bout that KOBE 81 points....eh !!!

Quote: Originally posted by David Urban on 23 January 2006

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If someone falls and twists or breaks an ankle, should the response be, as Frank stated:

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Quote: Originally posted by Fránk Pinéda ® on 23 January 2006

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As for the last comments..... Lisa is that you ????????

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Ladies & Gentlemen, we are now entering the twilight zone. Do not attempt to adjust your ODC Message Board settings.  The "fringies" will take over this thread in 3, 2, 1...

&

Quote: Originally posted by Fránk Pinéda ® on 23 January 2006

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Ok, moving on............................................
how'bout that KOBE 81 points....eh !!!

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Great photo, Verdi! The horns accessorize your goatee perfectly.

(And as an aside, I always appreciate your good-humoured take on things. Stuff happens; it's how we react that is the measure of our character.)

I was a member of the infamous hike on Saturday. There were many mistakes made obviously. Of course we should have all stayed together, but no one person is to blame.

Let's look to the future to prevent these kind of things from happening again.

 

Alan,

You probably have the most reasonable response of all. After all, even Lt. Curry of SAR said the group should have stuck together. I just cannot believe so many people in this forum are willing to excuse/rationalize/defend actions that endangered lives and led to unneccessary action and expense for the SAR. Some members of this club exhibit a dangerous attitude and recklessness that jeopardize others, and do not wish to take any responsibility for their actions. Why not  admit that just maybe  some additional precautions may need to be implemented to, in Alan's words, "prevent these kind of things from happening again." The thing to do is to learn from these type of mistakes, and do it better next time. And Frank, drop the macho attitude. It was a miserable and scary night for the two lost people, and no one needs to hear about how prepared you are and how you take care of yourself and how if that offends them they can go to a park. Yeah, we know how tough you are. You, however, have absolutely no business being in a club that organizes adventures for people who just might want to place a little trust and faith in their fellow adventurers to see them through to the end. You're the kind of guy that cuts the rope.

"How to Win Enemies and Assassinate Character" by D. Urban

maybe you could gather a few hard facts and then start over with the perry mason routine.
our club is still in its infant stage- this incident (and it's an isolated one) will certainly accelerate it along the learning curve. consider yourself severed...

and, verdi: i'm not sure who's going to be more pissed- your wife or your barber.

Dave, you insult people you don't know about a trip you weren't part of in a club you haven’t done anything with. Please drop the Holier-Than-Thou attitude. It stinks and no one wants to hear about how good of an arm chair quarterback you are.

Hey, sometimes when you go adventuring, things go awry.

Urban, tut-tut and chastise all you want, but the fact is, we're dealing with fallible human beings here. The individuals on the trip made choices that they, at the time, felt were in their best interests. You would've made different choices? Cool. I would like think I would've, too. The rule "Keep the group together, uber alles" is one I believe in, but so what? I wasn't there; I wasn't part of the group dynamic; I don't know what else might've been going on.

It's very easy to second-guess and play Monday morning quarterback from behind the comfort of a computer screen, eh?

Same goes for you, Brown.

David,

Before you dig the hole even deeper, check out the webmaster's take on what his organization is all about in a recent interview. Wildebeat Interview. It is quite illuminating and you will learn a lot about ODC. If the organization and the people invovled in it aren't to your liking, just go away. We won't miss you at all.

What a shame.  The great value of discussing such an epic, is to look at it from the perspective of what can be learned.  The fabulous book, "Accidents in North America Mountaineering", tries to do this every year, so that we can all learn, and not keep repeating the same mistakes.

As the leader (don't need the veil) of a group last summer that got lost in the backcountry, and spent an extra day out with SAR looking for us, I can appreciate how things can get out of hand before you know it.  The more people involved, the more complex the situation.  On my trip, I'm fairly sure that the participants, for example, came to appreciate the usefulness of whistles, although I'm sure it was irritating after awhile.  It allowed us to scout a much larger area, without loss of contact with the group.  Don't know if that "high technology" was available to the current group.  Multiple mistakes were made, mostly by me.  I went through a mental "scrubbing" afterwards, for quite sometime, as I'm sure that all the participants are doing now.

The more advanced the trip posted, the more that each person must be prepared to function independently....maps, compass, food, water......in fact, the 10 essentials, are.  In my mind, an "advanced" trip should include the ability to bivy out overnite, unexpectedly.  Doesn't take much, but an advanced trip implies, to me, that there will be significant issues of nav, conditioning, time, skill, maybe risk;  and any disruption will quickly result in an epic.

However, while I think looking at circumstances, to learn, is essential,  taking an "attitude" about others actions, based on incomplete information, seems pretty counter-productive. 

That the ODC has some sort of liability for SAR costs is absurd.  If they had posted this on the bulletin board at REI, would the bulletin board manufacturer be responsible?  Would REI?

Glad that all got off the mountain.

Verdi, very clear description.  Now I know what happened to your hair!

       

The situation that you describe is most problematic:  a group getting separated in a non-trail situation.  Yikes!      I would suggest that communication is critical in such a situation.  One thing that I really feel that people should stick to, is what they have agreed to do.  When one does not, it starts to create tremendous uncertainty.  I think that if one decides to deviate from the agreed-upon plan, they have an obligation to their fellow adventurers to meet up with them, and explain carefully what they are doing, and why. 

Obviously, the crew that got back did not know where they were....otherwise the SAR's wouldn't have been climbing the top of the mountain.   Also, the pair obviously got disoriented....otherwise why did they not get back?  They were apparently not prepared to navigate that terrain....maps?  Compass?  THAT was a mistake not being prepared for that, when they took off from the group.   Would have been nice to have had radios, cheap and light.

Also, while I appreciate that people hike at different speeds and get spread out, I still think that there should be an attempt to stay together or regroup regularly, especially if there is no way to communicate between the various factions.  When not on a trail, it is VERY easy to end up off- route accidentally.

One wouldn't think that a dayhike could turn into a rescue operation that doesn't involve an injury, but this sure demonstrates how that could happen.

Verdi, I'm not entirely sure that I agree that just because people are experienced, and adults, and have choices, that there cannot be BAD choices.  I don't know of any SAR or people involved in serious mountaineering, that would consider splitting up a lost party a good idea, no matter the outcome.   Just because a person is lucky, does NOT mean that they made reasonable choices.  After all, the SAR people can't just beam you up!

 

Verdi.. thanks for the good report.  I totally agree that on a advanced trip with the ODC everyone should be able to take care of themselves, since its about personal responsibility. sh*t does happen at times, but doesnt mean cuz you step in it you also have to sleep in it.

I never faulted the trip leaders or the ones who got back early. I've been on many a hike where I had hikers flat out refuse to not only stay with the group, but wait at major intersections, even when they did not know the trail. I've even said at that point, you are on your own, and its your responsibility to get back safely, not the leaders. My question was as to why two people would split up at night, still is valid. Me personally: I would have curled up next to a Bigfoot with a bladder problem to stay warm. Verde is an excellent leader, strong hiker and has a great sense of humor, and he does know how to deal with SAR, so he got the funny jab.

As far as monday morning quarterbacking Liz, how many trips have you led?One, Uno, Einze, Iche.. a concert in Santa Monica. Maybe you're the one who should not be commenting. Call me when you've taken over 1000 people outdoors. Better yet, call me when you take some responsibility and lead more than one trip.

Brown, honey, read up on "ad hominem" attacks and then get back to me, mmkay?

Verdi,  thank you for sharing your first hand perspective on the trip.  Most of the assumptions the rest of us were making were wrong. 

When you say that no mistakes were made, you are implying that if the group was in the same situation in the future they would not do anything differently.  Verdi, you probably did the best thing possible given the situation you were in since you couldn't force people to stay together.  I am willing to give the leader the benefit of the doubt that he did everything he could also.  But can you really say that nobody made any mistakes?

I don't understand the sense of urgency to get back to the "campsite", particularly since the group was planning on camping in the woods anyway.  Running back and forth to try to keep 2 groups together seldom works.    The danger from spending the night in an unplanned campsite is far less than the danger of being separated from the group. 

I'm guessing the top 3 mistakes were: 1. The group didn't stay togther.  2.  A few people kept wandering around even though they knew they were lost (they weren't found for 6-8 hours after the sun came up.   If they stayed in one place they would have been found sooner by the other ODC people.  3. flashlights and whistles could have sped up the recovery.   

If I am ever in this same situation what should I do?  What should I not do?

 

 

Just a couple of suggestions for trip coordinators of hikes like these. If there are going to be more than 6 people on an off-trail scramble either screen well and make sure everybody moves at the same pace, or break it up in to two or more groups and make sure that these smaller groups stay together and keep an eye on each other. These separate groups can meet up at the start, at rest points during the hike, and at the end for beer but each little group should have enough supplies and knowledge of the terrain to be able to get out separately.    

Being in good physical condition is probably the least important aspect of being an experienced hiker.  You people all sound like a bunch of amateurs to me.  Maybe instead of bitching about George Bush and organized religion, you should wake up and buy a GPS unit and take enough clothes for an overnight stay.

Casual observation suggests that much of the "bitching" on this thread originates from one or two individuals who seem to have registered as ODC members in the last couple of days solely for the purpose of venting. This is unfortunate. As Ken has said, this is a serious subject worthy of thoughtful discourse.

Then again, of what value are the ravings of a "fringy" such as myself?

The issue of GPS often comes up in these situations.  Personally, I think that they are the wrong answer.  I find that people gain a false sense of security, and can get into situations they should not, because they have it.

GPS is NOT a substitute for map-reading skills, and knowledgable use of a compass.  It is an extension of those skills.  GPS can fail for all sorts of reasons.....most commonly, user error.

For example, one might think, just whip out the GPS and follow it back to the cars.  Well, if you didn't take the time to set a way point before you left, possibly a 5 minute process with everyone waiting, then the GPS has no clue where your car is!  If you turned it on, so it has a record of your route,...oops, you didn't take that route down!

So, GPS is not a panacea, and should really only be considered once one already has the skills of navigation down pretty good.

Quote: Originally posted by Fránk Pinéda ® on 23 January 2006

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I dont know who the trip "coordinator" not "leader" was, or who the participants were (well I know Verdi), but are you not assuming too much by stating this"Take care of your people next time, and don't abandon them to die in the wilderness.".
Noone here knows what happened but the people that were on the trip itself......and I havent seen any of them pointing fingers...

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I was on the trip, my first with the Outdoors Club, having heard about it from my friend Annie who was also on the trip. I'm active in similar clubs. In each, you either carefully read the Release & Waiver of Liability Agreement or you scan it, as you do the trip description, and sign up, never thinking that your adventure could turn tragic. I think that's normal, one never thinks that it will happen to them.

The reason that none of us who were on the trip are pointing fingers is because we all take responsibility for our actions and decisions. In my opinion, the trip description adequately described what we could expect. The unexpected should be up to the participants to prepare for. I understand that Joe was only the coordinator and had limited responsibility but if you had witnessed his efforts to maintain the safety of the group and his deep concern for all when things went badly, you'd be assured that he is a man of great character. Only as a result of people not understanding the facts of the club and the incident could this "negatively effect the organization". After observing the negativity and finger pointing that always occurs after such an incident, one has to wonder why anyone would choose to coordinate such a trip in the future? If this warns quality people like Joe off from coordinating trips, that definitely negatively effects the organization.

As Ken Murray wrote: "What a shame.  The great value of discussing such an epic, is to look at it from the perspective of what can be learned." A couple of the things that I learned:

• I carried only nine of the ten essentials, I was not carrying a map of the area. I was familiar enough with the area but had I been carrying a map and especially my GPS, and had I been using it to mark waypoints along our path, I would have been better prepared to assist in the search when the unexpected occurred.
• I also noticed that the SAR personnel wear bright orange shirts and saw for myself how visible that made them. What was I wearing during the hike? Pale green shirt and black pants, hardly enough to make me stand out against the greens, browns, and shadows of the terrain. I'll be making some wardrobe changes for the future.

What would I like to see become required or suggested for anyone participating in future outdoor activities?

• The ten essentials.
• A realistic self assessment of one's experience and abilities after reading the trip description and before beginning the trip.
• Contact information available in case of emergency. Brief physical description? Recent photo? Relevant medical history: diabetes, heart disease, serious allergies?
• An impression of the sole of the footwear worn the day of the hike? All it takes is single step onto a piece of tin foil placed on a soft surface, identify it using a permanent marker, and keep it in a vehicle at the trailhead.
• In each vehicle at the trailhead: Number and names of participants? Destination? Route plan? Date and time of departure?

For the group:

• Like Lt.Curry of the Sheriff's Dept said: "The No. 1 mistake they did was they didn't stick together. If you go in as a group, you go out as a group."
• FRS radios, one at the front, one at the rear, so the two can communicate?

What else?

I'll just add that I've never been more relieved in my life to have seen Doug and Allison found safe and sound. I can't express enough my respect and gratitude to all who responded and participated in the search: the Park Rangers and Sherriff who arrived minutes after the call for help and immediately called for SAR, the SAR personnel who got the call at 1:30 in the morning with the first team of ground-pounders hitting the trail at 3am, the Sherriff's Dept. helicopter pilot who searched as long as possible that night and to those who resumed the search at daylight... to all the dedicated people of the SD County Sherriff's Dept and San Diego Mountain Rescue Team... the Boy Scouts of Troop 4 out of Pasadena and their leaders who were camping in Palm Canyon Saturday night and aided and assisted in the search... to the other hikers in the group, and again, to Joe for his effort and concern.